Personally, certain maps use different weapons for me. I play sniper, as well as others. Take overlook for example, how many real places in their take advantage of sniper skills, outside yes. I love the LMG with some type of explosive to knock holes in walls or shotgun for this map. As other map packs roll out like in BF3, you will find some are not so sniper friendly. I like maps with a mix so you can play one type of class then another map kicks in and then you have to change styles. Such as the close quarters maps from BF3. But the spawn beacon is necessary for your squad to not spawn in a kill zone, period. You do need recon for that to happen. If this game was played in a squad perspective instead of the lone wolf on his own and takes on the world. Maybe the playing would be different. But whatever, I feel we (BK)  should all  strive to squad up and work as more of a team if we could.  And use the in game chat for squads as this would make the squad more personal and not for everyone to hear it so much in teamspeak.

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I think I have to agree with my wolf brother on this one. The big issue really is with recon most people use that class with ability to use the sniper rifle and pick off slow moving people on what amounts to wide open spaces. In the past eventually there have been maps that have worked for the crouch play and gave the other players the ability to move around without being cut down immediately. The problem with just about all the maps currently on BF4 is there are very few spots which you can move around and not be open to immediate one shot death from a sniper riffle. DMR's do the same way, even if its two shots your still dead before you can nmove between cover. So what happens is the only avenues to move in becomes a bulletfest and no one can move around very much.

Team death match only promotes the camp the firing lanes tactic and any game where you have to move to captur an objective becomes aggravating for those who try cause they die quickly without much to show for it. Now add in the goofy spawns of BF4 and it makes it that much worse. Maybe rush would be a better fit but maybe not. Myabe there will be maps that come out where these issues are not a factor.

So I think until one there are maps that will work with crouch or maybe a different game type like rush or obliteration, then crouch is gonna be the issue. I know that recon was thought to be the answer but now its DMR's and if they go away it will be one of the better guns that can fire single shot with accuracy. As long as there are slow moving easy targets in the open someone will use a gun  to make it work. So people started sitting in place then people started using motars and launchers to kill people. The problem is not kits or weapons but adapting crouch to maps that just end up turning into killfest. I love the crouch because it involved fire and maneuver. Even in BO if we had issues were a map developed into that type of killfest, it was removed an another added. There was a balance to the maps; even if there was a choke point it could be countered. Unfortunately in BF4 at this point the only counter to snipers with the open maps is a sniper or motar. So the game dissolved into a camp and sniper fest.

So having said that mouthgul I agree with Silent, I think until some maps come out that offer this counter-balance we have to take the crouch out, put all the weapons and kits back and play infantry only. If maps come out that will allow a counter-balance to each weapon and kit then we use those maps and go back to crouch.

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"Do or do not there is no try!"

At first I was in favor of removing the recon class until last night. The use of mortars, rpg's and grenades used on the spawn points was outrageous! I was killed in spawn 4 times in a row by an opposing player using a support weapon. I've come to realize the problem is not any certain weapon or class, the problem is our spawn killing rules. Players that have learned where they are on maps take full advantage. They score lots of points and their targets get mad.
Yes, there are times when a player turns around looking for a target and sees one and shoots. Did they just spwan there, let's say yes. This is not a problem to me, frustrating yes. However, when a player starts killing the same members of the opposing team more than once, that's an issue.
We need to change our spawn killing rule and enforce it. When more than one player says he was killed more than once in spawn by player "X" that player gets warnings same as tk's etc. When the new badkon arrives add another column for "SP".
Re-install the recon class and create rules for spawn killing.
I played on BK servers a long time and applied to join BK for 3 reasons,
1. the slower pace of crouch, it evened the playing field for me
2. the friendliness of the members
3. enforcing rules.

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Since I don't really like crouch-play in BF4 all that much, and have no opinion on the Recon rule..... Starts to make me think we should just convert it to a Run & Gun Infantry server.  If we keep the recon class out, then players will turn to other 'easy kill' weapons. RPGs, nade launchers, and mortars. Since spawn killing is not against our rules, and the spawn s re so predictable, spawn killing and camping is not going anywhere.  At least if we could run right out of spawn, we
d get a good chance to get away.

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-- Of all the soles I've ever tasted, his had the most   ....cumin. --

I already posted about this so I am not going to repeat what i put there. If we are going to leave out the recon class then we must get rid of the DMR's where are as powerful if not more powerful then almost all of the sniper rifles. Which essentially gives every class a sniper type rifel with almost as much kick as the bolt actions. As I said in my other post with the addition of a multi shot type mouse or the use of the scroll wheel the DMR's become a very over powered weapon.

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Instead of dumping recon lets look at the actual issue.  We are using a lot of TDM maps and that means ppl want kills to win an alot of ppl assume that means easy sniper mode.  Lets keep crouch AND all weapons and perks and explore a more objective based gameplay maybe 1 in 10 be a TDM the rest be a mix of rush, conquest, obliteration etc.  If you can make sniper style players move and or avoid thier fire zones it evens things out and everyone benefits.  Also remember as we have more maps available we will have more options.  I am a firm believer in using as many maps as possible for variety but if we really have a major issue with particular maps in certain game modes I would reluctantly agree not to use them.  The one hit kill is less of an issue than the weapon people who play the BA rifle and sit will just swap out for a different weapon you arent solving the problem with restrictions.  Change the benefits of the playstyle ( game type ).  Adapt or die is appropriate saying here.  I would also like to add I see a lot of complaining about dying from this or that but I rarely see any counter tactics ( and yes I realize that dying on spawn is hard to counter ).  I am talking about when you do have options like smoke supppresive fire XM25 etc ppl wont use them they play the same way and keep dying ( reminds me of the definition of insanity ).  I realize ppl like to play a certain way ...however if you have options that would help your K/D and dont use them who is really to blame? ....the person who killed you or the person who didnt adapt to the situation and overcome it.   RANT OFF

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I preferred it the way it was with recon. Since the no recon there has been a massive influx of robots and dmr usage. I have stopped frequenting the crouch server except to pester my gatekeeper two four. It seems as if overall the server has been more empty. Btw I mostly played assault on the crouch server and recon on the second server.

Thanks Noxn, hopefully the Senior Officers will be deciding shortly.

TwoFour wrote (View Post):

Thanks Noxn, hopefully the Senior Officers will be deciding shortly.

That would be nice.  I would like to come back to server one again.

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I decided to stop playing on this server. It's not fun for me anymore. My thanks and respect to everyone in BK.  

Spawn camping (intentional or unintentional) is a problem on the postage stamp size maps that we must use for crouching type game play. Map size also dictates the speed of game play if ya don't want a knife fest u need a way to slow the movement speed down. Time is also a factor on maps, getting to the target area, taking it and holding it all become part of the games equation. Type of terrain are also a factor they determine what type of gear you will use. WAW was great for crouching even the biggest map was small compared to BF4, it had lots of cover to crouch around and rifle nades the deadliest problem once the tanks and dogs were removed, (bingo a winner!). We used same formula with blkops, all maps worked and the choppers and bombers gave ya something to achieve for some big multi kills. BF3 and BF4 are the most realistic game play to come along in years, Big maps, Big weapons, Big fun if ya like the first two. The sniper rifles and perks were intended for the big map type game play, they are intended to be used across great distances while reconnoitering an enemy from said distance, so big caliber, big killing power. We a BK are looking to provide everyone a game that is unique to BK a game type no one else does. With all the different types of complaints its very difficult to make choices that makes the majority happy. :/ I would like only transport vehicles, no armor or choppers, big maps, regular movement all weapons and perks. My 2 cents  

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Have to agree with everything you said Sir, especially the part about big maps all weapons all perks, and transport only. I think we are a minority that would prefer to play BF4 in all it's glory sans (without) vehicles.
My 5 Canadian cents since we no longer have pennies

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It doesn't matter either way for me.  I adapt to any kind of gameplay.  If we do chose to keep the "no recon" rule I would like a tab added to badkon to make it easier to warn players.  Keep in mind that every restriction we have in our servers eliminates a segment of the player population effectively reducing the amount players in the server.  Oh and one more thing, since these maps are not very shotgun friendly perhaps we can also have shotgun day for BF4 crouch server.

I have played with BK for a few years now. And I have always enjoyed your servers. To me to remove the recon from a server is a mistake. Now I understand that the crouch can be an issue with the slow moving targets. I also, know that spawn killing can be an issue with the rifles. For me I love the bolt action rifle and am sad to see it go. As for losing the perks of the recon class this is very tough on a recon style player.

Now the one thing I have not seen mentioned at all is getting rid of the scopes on recon. Yes they are still one shot one kill, but take the scope away and it evens the field more.  Also adding an objective based game play will help as well.

I see no reason for the restriction. Not when other rifles have almost comparable abilities as recon.

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